Harry is recognised by most supporters as the complete footballer. I don’t think anyone can logically dispute this. He is in the Tottenham Hotspur team to score goals and he has proved capable of scoring with his left foot, right foot, and his head, on a remarkably consistent basis. That is indisputable, too.
But part of being a ‘complete footballer’ means he has many other attributes, too. He can defend, he can spot key passes, he can hold up the ball, he remains cool in possession, rarely panics, and he can read the game extremely well. Like all top players, he has a football brain and his thinking is often ahead of his colleagues. He has the ability to know what is happening around him before he gets the ball, much like Modric had (I’m not comparing them beyond this).
Playing a more defensive style of football, as we currently are, means that Harry is often isolated in a forward position and sometimes far less involved in the match. This often sees him dropping back to find the ball and get more involved. By dropping back he takes up the space that midfielders use and leaves a gap going forward when Spurs make a break. Not always, but it happens.
There is continual discussion among Spurs supporters about the need for a back-up striker, mainly in the event that Harry gets injured. But what would happen if Spurs did not opt for a back-up, bench warming striker, but went for a recognised target striker instead (for a name we would need to refer to Jod).
What would the team look like with a new number nine, and Harry playing as a number ten. In other words (to clarify for older supporters) a new centre forward and Harry in an inside forward position. We already have a nice choice of fast, tricky players, to occupy other attacking positions.
Personally, I doubt that such a shift in position would affect Harry’s goal scoring feats as he would continue to find himself with goals scoring opportunities. And, with more freedom to roam, I would imagine that his reading of the game and passing ability would lead to many more goals from the assists he could make.
Harry is certainly not old, but he is getting older and it could well be that he will need to drop back in two or three years as part of the natural order of things. Maybe it would be beneficial to both the team, and him, if this happens sooner rather than later. And it would allow his all-round attributes to come into play.
Once again, I am not advocating this, just throwing it out for general discussion. Gotta love football!
ND, I think it’s been more a case of you trying to convince others that Winks is rubbish… And asking us to convince you that he’s not.
If you think he’s rubbish, you think he’s rubbish. I can’t change your mind on that, no matter what I say. It’s only Harry himself that can do that.
And jod is right anyway about our homegrown quota needing to be upheld. So any homegrown player leaving will need replacing with another. And that can’t be guaranteed to happen.
Hi guys
My opinion on Winks isn’t that he is rubbish. As I said he has his strengths. And like some here I find him a decent squad player. I not here to convince anyone on my opinion what I do is to try to back up what I have said with facts.
Re selling Winks I think you’ll find he was never on my list or EJs to sell.
But with the Hype around the 40 million valuation, would I have taken it. You bet.
I know as HT alluded to its a BS news story.
But my logic on the 40 mil for Winks and why I would’ve sold. That would get us both Wilson, CF, and Castagne RB.
There are Players out there who whilst good, just aren’t the best at a certain position I feel Winks is one who falls in this in between category.
For example
Joe Cole, Theo Walcott, Ross Barklay, JJ Shelve, Tom Cleverly,Jack Wiltshire.
And to a degree Eric Dier. I feel Winks is in this neither nor category.
I don’t hate the guy I just think he is a squad player. He’s decent, and can close off a game when needed.
Many on here have complained that Tottenham have been side to side negative backward passing.
We’ll this is Winks’s game.
Enjoy the Bants.
Stats, what do they mean? What do they mean without being put into context or given any supporting information or explanation?
ND, where did that 11% forward passing stat come from and what does it mean? If it means that 11% of all his passes are forward passes and the rest are not, then how does that then compare with every other PL player in his position? What if every other player has only a 10% rate?
But since you put up those stats, I thought I would look some up as well. I found that in the 2018-19 season Winks had by far the highest percentage of completed passes in the PL. But then some folks will say; “So what, I bet they were nearly all sideways and backwards”. They were. But, it turns out that Harry had the highest percentage rate of all midfielders. 15.24% of his passes were forward passes. And this was the highest rate of all in the PL.
Fast forward to the 2019-20 season just gone. And, to when Jose took over. (This relates to what Geof and myself suggested about Jose’s tactics concerning how Winks plays his DM role). I’d forgotten this but Jose had actually had a meeting with Winks to encourage him to be more progressive with his passing out of defence. To play more forward balls… Winks agreed that he needed to do this. He did. And it then turns out that although he may not have been the PL midfielder with the highest forward passing stats last season. He was right up there at the top handful for progressive passing per 90 mins and, progressive distance carried with the ball. And he was way, way ahead of most PL central midfielders in this… And that’s all CM’ers, not just deep lying ones.
But what does this all mean? Well even though it seems to completely debunk the perception that Harry plays too negatively and doesn’t progress the play enough. (In fact it shows the opposite). It doesn’t actually now make me think he is an even better player than I already thought. And I very much doubt that anyone who doesn’t rate him will now change their mind…
So, we are back to square one… 🙂
Good morning ND. I have just read your post… I was writing mine before I saw yours…
God I’m sad……. Doing my research and all the rest….. But I do find soccer stats interesting. And I know that clubs and coaches analyse them more and more these days….. But when all is said and done, most of us will just use our eyes to make up our minds. How old fashioned is that? 😉
HT …. Gotta love stats! lol
General …. We should always remember never to let a good rumour get in the way of facts. Otherwise the TW would have no meaning and no interest.
Morning/Evening, Geof.
I say… Gotta love Harry Winks! 😉
lol, HT.
Winks was an England international and once played a really good game. However, like Dier and Dele he has dropped well down the pecking order. I remember well the first goal he scored for Spurs when he ran around the pitch to hug Poch. Since those times he has become a very ordinary but reliable sort of midfielder with a limited range of passing. Definitely a bench player and a good one to run the clock down. I feel we have to aim higher and try to get outstanding players in every position. We have no youngsters coming through, so selling and buying has to be the way forward. Waiting for the next exciting signing. Always living in hope.
Hi HT
The old saying lies damned lies and statistics.
You got yours I got mine.
Still think you have the wrong vowel there in Winks name. Lol.
Morning all, one hell of a debate on here, re Winks, between HT and ND with put ins from Geofspurs and WW, brilliant great reads, just shows how we all have opinions and different views, by the way I am on the “rate him side”.
ND, thanks for your earlier remark regards my “kick yer Granny”, it was always there, but had to be diplomatic in case I was accused of being a “Grannyist” lol!, for your info my 2 dear Grannies, now deceased, were as hard as bloody nails, they took no prisoners lol! those were the days.
Off topic here, who watched MC get kicked out of the CL quarter final stage AGAIN! had me laughing
because Spurs did em last season and a Spurs name sake did em this year, Moussa Dembele lol!
What I did notice was that Lyon played similar to the way JM is trying to get Spurs to play, hard n tight in defense, do not concede, and hit them on the break, according to some a non-entertaining way of play, yet MC played all that nice/quick/bright entertaining football yet they lost, Lyon played their way and lets be honest looked like they could have score every time they went forward, even more so if their final ball had been a lot better.
Even commentator SM said well done Lyon and congratulations for sticking to your plan.
So if we play that way next season and win, that will do me, its all about 3pts in the league and a cup in the other comps, my hard hats on. COYS
So PY, Your two Grannies were kick yer Granny kind of Grannies!
And if Hoj kicked ’em, they’d kick him back twice as hard… I had a Granny like that… But I called her Grandad! 😉
Haha HT very good, well!, my two Grannies, tough as old rope the pair of em, invented feminism I think, they were both tough lovable old birds, even the two Grandad’s were wary of em lol!, typical country folk took no shit, I will always remember em playing football with me and my bruvs, tough, eat your heart out Souness or Mackay lol! COYS
Cheers WW much the same opinion as me there. There is an ESPN report on line today which is headlined reference N’Dombele and Aurier whether to sell /keep or loan it goes on to assess all the Tottenham squad.
Re Winks it says much of what WW and I think.
I’ve made up my mind on Harry W… If he stays at Spurs, he remains as the great player I believe him to be.
If he goes to another PL rival and is no longer “one of our own”, then I’ll admit….. He’s crap!
ND …. Sorry, but I thought WW said Winks is a good bench player. Why would we want to lose good bench players. Maybe I’m just being pedantic but, as I said before, I am waiting to see what all of our players can do after a full season playing the way Jose wants them to. Unfortunately that will require me to exercise some patience. So it will all come down to hindsight at the end of the season. It’s certainly going to be an interesting season one way or another.
Yep Geofspurs, hindsight it is a wonderful thing, after the horse has bolted and all that shenanigans, I agree to wait and see what all our players can do under JM after a full season of his coaching.
I have watched a nos of Aussie Rules games, quite enjoyed them it seems all let em ave it, I think I have the majority of the rules but here’s a question….when is a foul a foul and not a foul? I see some geyser forearm in the boatrace of an opponent – no foul, then another arm round chest in tackle – foul, oh and the commentators comments do make you smile. COYS
Fek me Geoff so did I say that m8. He is a good bench player.
But with the £40 million price tag for a” bench player ” in today’s market , why would we not take it.
That was all I was trying to say.
I think a lot of my issue with Wonksy is probably thru media hype.
I felt we were promised the next Inniesta. But for one reason or another it didn’t happen.
Whether it’s down to Winks being about as good as he can now get or he has been limited by the manager in his position.
I probably feel a bit robbed from the lofty heights of his goal referred to by WW and where he seems to be now.
Geoff I said on this page that he is a good squad player. Someone to come on and close down a match. If that’s not the same or similar to what WW said I don’t know what is.
I just thought 40 mil was a decent price for him.
BTW I’m with you HT I’ll like him at present but if he moves to Man C he’ll be totally crap. Lol
PY has yer Granny got a pair of football boots. RB position at Spur needed. Lol.
PY
Just like you I watched the Man C game. Man C looked like what we were under Poch. And Lyon looks like what JM sort of wants us to become maybe a bit better.
Just my thoughts.
Tin hat ready.
PY
Sorry M8 noticed both your Grans deceased. Rip.
Man C.fans very unhappy at Pep thinking Winks might be a transfer prospect. Some very disparaging comments about Winks being a busy, nothing sort of player. Howver, if City offered 40million that would be a great deal for us and free up some cash for a much needed full back and the very elusive back up striker. We have Sissoko, Hojbjerg, Dier and possibly Skipp able to play in that role. I still think we need a strong, creative ,attacking midfielder who can add to our goals tally. Let’s hope N’Dombele finally comes good. He has had plenty of time to get fit.He looks very skilful but at present very poor value. Still hopeful of comings and goings. We do need a lot of strengthening imho.
seems like winks has reached hes potential, not gonna get any better, if we are going to compete players like winks should not be starting. Its time spurs got ruthless, are we gonna still accept to been behind arsenal and chelsea.
123 and WW
Something like what I alluded to earlier.
2 schools of thought here guys. Lol.
Get yer tin hats on.
Glad I’m not a lone voice in this.
haha ……only took Manu 7 minutes to get another penalty, I think the commentator said it was their 26th of the season!
* correction….22nd of the season, must equate to about 25% of their goals scored.