It’s pretty obvious really …. football is a game of two teams. It is not logical to expect that the team we support will have everything its own way.
Spurs have dropped points against teams where all supporters expected a win. This often leads to frustration, even anger, from many supporters. But, despite this, we sit in second place on the table, above such fancied clubs such as City, United, Chelsea, and Arsenal (although, to be honest, I’ve never fancied Arsenal).
A mid-table or bottom club can take points from a top club …. on any given day. This happens more and more as many teams decide it is better to play defensively and get a point rather than play to win and end up with nothing. it’s a practical theory, and it works. We see that every week.
But many teams also realise that by sitting back and defending they could steal a win from a fast break. We see that most weeks as well. Every PL team has at least one or two players that are above average. They can turn any game, and they sometimes do. That is the way the PL will play out in future years. That is why predicting results can be so difficult.
Some supporters seem to see this as a problem that only Spurs have. This isn’t true. Supporters, generally, fail to give credit to the opposing team when they win or force a draw. We are more prone to pick faults with our own team. To demonise the team or the manager because of a poor result does not make sense because …. there are two teams on the park. To demonise the team or the manager after a series of poor results is a different matter.
The reality is that every top team will lose points they should not, on paper, lose. We beat Brighton but could have easily lost as they missed three completely open goals that ‘Arry’s missus’ would have scored (she was some kind of player)! Sometimes teams play well and lose. Sometimes teams play badly and win. It’s the unpredictability and competitiveness of the PL that makes it the most exciting competition in world football. How lucky are we to be in the mix.
If I’m not mistaken I think we all agreed that the recent Transfer Window was a great success and we now have (arguably) two players for every position. Given the amount of games on the horizon that was crucial for the rest of the season. It’s also pretty obvious that team rotation is a significant aspect of the game for the clubs fighting on many fronts. Clubs like Spurs.
This is where the manager, any manager, needs to make the right decisions. But those ‘right decisions’ are not easy to make. A manager has to ‘mix and match’ his players for specific games. He bases his decisions on what he sees at training. He expects that his players will perform at their optimum level when he picks them. But sometimes they don’t. That is not the manager’s fault although he often gets the blame.
When to use the bench during a game is a decision managers will, in hindsight, be vilified or praised for. But it’s a fine line of distinction. Again, many supporters are quick to demonise a manager when things don’t go as expected (or desired). Even during a live match thread, many supporters start calling for heads before the match is over. What is that about? How does it help …. especially when we often go on and win the game in any case. What those supporters forget is …. there are two teams on the park! The other thing to remember is that it is not the manager’s fault every time a player does not perform.
Most league games so far this season have been against lower clubs who elected to defend. Those games were often a struggle. But we sit in second place. We have only played one match against a perceived major rival … a team intent on attacking. It was away from home. How did that turn out!
Spurs cannot play the same way against every team because those other teams will play differently. There are two teams on the park. We will play much differently against United, Arsenal, Chelsea, City, etc, than against, Fulham, WBA, Brighton, etc. As supporters we can provide a better service to our club by recognising, and accepting, how modern day PL football works. Knee-jerk reactions aimed against team members or the manager are far from helpful or supportive. Of course, it might be a different story if Spurs were in the bottom six instead of the top six.
But we are second and will remain there until our next game against Manchester City at home …. a game that will see two attacking teams on the park! Whatever happens, it’s worth remembering that one game does not define a season. Gotta love football!
I’ll say 3 things on this matter TQ
1 it was a friendly
2 It was against Ireland
3 He is hardly pulling up trees
He is a squad player.
TBH was only answering Jods post and don’t want to really discuss Winks.
I have my opinions others differ.
Niall, I was referring to the Belgium game not the previous friendly against ireland.
I don’t understand why your comments on Winks come across in such a venomous way Niall, he is just a footballer, he’s not Vlad the Impaler! lol
Poor result for England tonight.
I’ll open up a little debate here maybe as an outsider.
I feel Gareth Southgate is intent on placing almost all of his former under 21 squad in the England team.
I’m not sure that this will be a success, it doesn’t always happen that a flourishing youth player becomes a great senior performer.
I think there are better “older” English players being overlooked currently, to allow for Mr Southgates’
Possible ego trip.
Just the thoughts of an outsider.
TQ …. I’m afraid you are right in saying we won’t see the best from Morgan without better players around her. I wonder what she is thinking about her decision to join Spurs? I subscribe to Optus Sport and can therefore watch all International, PL, and WSL games on demand. That means I can watch games when I wake up instead of staying awake until 3 or 4 am. That’s nice!
I’d be really upset if any Spurs players get injured in England’s last game. Is there any need to play them as it’s all over?
Niall D – “if he is being played out of position, then obviously there must be several better players at Spurs in the position he should be in”. Doesn’t really follow does it ? If we need a DM and don’t have one we play someone out of position. How far that is down to what he can do in other positions and how much our other options can do as a DM only the manager really knows. But if Jose thinks playing Sisssoko or Ndombele or any of his other midfield options as a DM will be a disaster he’s going to play Winks there regardless of what he can do in other positions. Throwing out a list of names and just assuming they are all wonderful doesn’t cut it, I’m pretty sure if there was a good DM we could get at a reasonable price we’d have got one, we seemed to get everyone else we wanted. It sounds a bit like the old game played by Spurs fans for years where everyone not playing for the club is assumed to be better than anyone playing for the club.
Regarding Winks, I actually think he’s gotten his fair share of chances as a number 8, box to box type (supposedly his best position) over the years, and he hasn’t really seized them.
He’s not a DM like Hojbjerg, so judging average performances in that role may be slightly unfair to Winks. We need someone to mop up minutes there, and Winks does his best, but he’s never going to excel there. That’s called being a squad player and being willing to help the team out, which is admirable.
However, in Jose’s preferred formation right now (433), we play an inverted triangle with Hojbjerg holding, and 2 box to box midfielders tasked with controlling the midfield and feeding our front 3.
This is supposedly a better fit for Winks’ skill set, and he has gotten quite a few opportunities there, but realistically, he’s Jose’s 4th choice in that role (with Tanguy, Gio and Sissoko all preferred when everyone is fit and available).
Unless anyone was suggesting playing Winks as a number 10 – which I personally don’t see given his skill set, is a non-starter anyways in our current setup, I don’t think the problem with Winks is so much being played out of position as it is just suffering from the competition at the club. Even as a number 10, he’d then be competing with the likes of Dele Alli.
Winks is a neat and tidy squad player, but that’s probably his ceiling. There’s nothing wrong with that. But I don’t think there is a magical level waiting to be unlocked. By now, we know what Harry is and isn’t. I am very happy to have him around in the squad, but I’d be disappointed if he was starting for us.
Interesting game last night. The first half was entertaining (from a neutral point of view), the second half less so.
It’s one of those games where you could say the better team lost. England played better overall, but failed to create anything of note. Belgium were clinical in the first half, then controlled the game (which made it quite boring at the end).
It’s the type of performance both teams can take something from. England played well against a top team, but I still think Southgate’s current system is too cautious and relies on moments of individual brilliance. 5 defenders and 2 rather defensive midfielders is very safe. If you score first, it’s probably a great way to play, but trying to chase a game with that formation seems… hopeful.
For Belgium, it’s the sort of performance I am happy to see from them. After the World Cup, a lot of people thought Belgium played beautiful attacking football, but were quite naive (especially in the semi final against France). This was a pragmatic win against a strong team, probably with a bit of fortune as well. A deflected long range strike, and a very questionable foul by Rice leading up to Mertens’ free kick (although credit where it is due, Mertens still had lots to do). Belgium are learning to “win ugly” – coincidentally, something Spurs are learing under Jose.
Hopefully, it will lead to success for both.
That’s a pretty fair assessment BS.
* of Winks of course, your post regariding the Belgium game hadn’t appeared when I wrote that.
Regarding the game last night……..it was good to see Toby and Jan together again, they both had a good game. I was intrigued by Denayer in the middle of a back 3 for Belgium, the guy has the mobility and agility of a carthorse but by God……he was very effective at defending their goal!
I know Southgate was somewhat limited in his team choice but still thought he got his starting selection wrong. Grealish and Mount either side of Kane was never going to work in a 433 or 343 formation, they might have done if they were part of a 3 in a 4231 formation.
I’m probably going against popular opinion but I don’t think Grealish is the answer at all, he is a bit like Zaha, he spends much of the match trying to win fouls rather than actually creating any real goalscoring opportunities. When he did win a foul on the edge of the opposition box it was left to Mount (for some unknown reason) to take the free kick when Kane would have been the more obvious choice, they did it again later in the match when Trippier was given a go.
As Geof says, I hope Southgate doesn’t play our guys in the dead rubber on Wednsday, we could do with them being fresh for the City game on Saturday.
Jod
Re Winks being played out of position.
Do you not know what you’ve written yourself.
It was your post at 2.49 on the 14 /11 which first alluded to this.
You also said there weren’t many out there, hence the list.
Read your oown comments m8 before responding to mine.
I was only responding to your assertion.
TQ I have said much the same as BS.
That Winks is a squad player.
Hardly venomous.
If you read back I’m trying to keep it short on him.
I just don’t see where he fits in.
Jod /TQ
I may have gotten mixed up re Winks there.
I was mostly alluding to his performances and position at Spurs.
Not at international level.
So some of our argument may have been at cross purposes.
TQ I written extensively about why I feel Winks isn’t (for me) much more than a squad player.
Hence my short (perhap) blunt answers.
I really don’t want to get into this.
I stated some time ago that we were almost promised the next “Xavi or Innestia” in Winks by many pundits I probably feel let down because of this.
I did state in another post that because of the above I may tend to have a negative bias against him
Some are like this with Dier.
So I tried rather unsuccessfully to keep my answers short on him.
No worries Niall, I think it’s fair to say we are pretty much all agreed that he is no more than a squad player, let’s move on and discuss something more important. How are we going to set up to beat City at the weekend? :- )
Winks is a future captain.
Haha……..put your red rag away 123. 🙂
TQ: “How are we going to set up to beat City at the weekend?” :- )
It’s obvious! Play Winks and Hojbjerg together!
Harry as the holding DM (Reliable, neat, quick on the ball and a very tidy and accurate passer) and Hojbjerg as the destroyer, (hard in the tackle, hard in the head), alongside and ahead of Winks.
When Poch mentioned Xavi and Iniesta in the same breath as Winks, he wasn’t saying that he was or will be at their level. He was simply referring to his style of play being more similar to those two as opposed to what we were used to seeing in the PL.
Going a few years back, I seem to remember that Xavi was sometimes criticised for his boring and simple style of play. A lot of backwards and sideways passing. Extremely accurate in his one-two-touch passing but boring…. Sound familiar?
He developed his game a lot but always kept it simple. Which means he made the difficult look deceptively simple… I think that Winks does this. It’s not flash but it’s technically sound… Some will say safe. Too safe. But when you’re playing in his position, it’s what is required. Safe and simple. Hojbjerg on the other hand looks to be more of a risk taker. He is also head strong. His passing can be wayward and not as accurate as Winks. Two very different players with different personalities. I think Hojbjerg is much more a Jose type player than Winks is. But Winks is still in the Spurs squad. Still getting played and also getting picked for England… There must be good reason for this, whether any of us supporters can see it or not.
As for City, I think we should leave Kane, Son, Hugo, and Hoj on the bench …. that’ll confuse the hell out of them!
Yes Geof! That’s a grand idea.
Maybe Jose should rotate himself as well. Bring Poch in for the day.
Surely having two top players in all positions is a good thing to aim for in a squad. So why not some decent cover for the manager too?
By the way, is Spurs not your real name?
HT….do you think he is the same Hendrick who recently moved to Newcastle and commutes weekly from Western Australia? :- )
Sorry, close but no cigar …. I’m the other Geof Hendrick!
HT, that post regards playing Winks is well written and argued to the point that your reasoning is true.
Winks is very simple in his play but also effective, ok there are times, but there are those times with all of them, it seems to me that Arry Mk2 is latest for some to get their hatchets out.
I still believe there is a great non-descript midfielder in there waiting to get out. COYS
Winks is in the same mould as Stevie Perryman for me, he is never going to be regarded as world class but is Tottenham through and through and will always play to the best of his ability and give everything for the club when selected, not like some mercenaries I can think of who play for some of our competitors.
TQ, am afraid I am in agreement with you there, a very good comparison to SP, I loved him playing for us.
Plus regards the mercenaries at some of our competitors. COYS
We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one folks ref Winks.
I’ve went into detail in the past why I don’t quite see him “up there” I think it was HT who said I couldn’t convince others at the time.
Likewise I can’t be convinced that he is more than a decent squad player.
123 Agreed Winks for captain
Of QPR. 🙂
Re Man C game let’s not hope, as what seems to happen with others that this is their come back game.
Worrying news folks
Doh has just tested positive for COVID.
That could affect Davies, Bale, Winksy, Dier, Kane.
Who were all in contact in the recent week or so.