Tottenham Hotspur put Premier League woes on the backburner again this midweek, and although we have a significant advantage over RZ Pellets WAC in our Europa League Round of 32 double header, the question on everyone’s lips is will we turn up and put in a performance that shows a reaction to our current woeful run of form.
For some, Wednesday’s early evening clash at White Hart Lane is about far more than simply the result and fans will be looking at manager Jose Mourinho to ‘fix’ the problems he claims he ‘cannot resolve’ as our first team haven’t suddenly become that bad overnight, even if the form guide shows five defeats in our last six league games.
Whilst performances were hardly perfect, the wheels on the early season optimism bus have well and truly fallen off and more and more fans will soon start looking behind us, as opposed to up the table, particularly if we don’t pick up some points sharpish.
Holding a 4-1 advantage from the first leg, our route to the next round shouldn’t be in question, but the reaction of the players and the performance they put in, could be very telling in terms of how the rest of the campaign will now go.
It seems to mme that just like our current play which is slow in build up with very little end product.
Very often second best to the Ball.
Similarly or transfer policy both ins and out’s is very slow and ponderous with very little end product and often second best. I now do believe that we have a management (not JM) who are happy with the Arsen Wenger” top four style ” of play win fek all but get into the lucrative European leagues that’ll make us money, if we get an EL or FA Cup along the way so be it.
We’ll buy average players make em look a it better and sell em on and trouser the profit.
There doesn’t seem any impetus to fix or strengthen our team where its needed..
The owners have taken their eye off the ball during the Stadium rebuild.
And our team is has a lot of “once weres” and” not quites”in it. Because the real cash went into directors boxes, restaurants, and craft beers.
I have been calling this for years, Niall.
If the stadium was only built to make the brand bigger and the owners richer, but not actually change how we attract and compensate players, I fail to see how it is going to help us win things.
Compensate players BS? Not how I would describe the obscene/absurd amount clubs are prepared to pay players.
TQ2Spurs – use the word you want, it’s just semantics.
PL footballers make obscene amounts of money in general, agreed.
But as far as PL wages go, THFC don’t come anywhere near paying at the top of the market. And if in modern football, money is certainly a helping factor as far as attracting the world’s best players, we begin at a disadvantage if we are not spending all of the money we can reasonably dedicate.
Allenr. What I meant to say… Levy has now got his training ground / stadium infrastructure for the club in place, spending hundreds of millions pounds over 11 years or so. Now the remaining hotels etc part of the development at WHL appears to be on hold. Levy & Joe can see they are having difficulties in getting naming rights of 25M a year for 10 years in present economic situation, and with revenues down and a team not performing… negative publicity engendered (jose etc,) the debt amount of £1b the highest in europe… means the value of THFC falls further.
So it is logical ENIC will now look to secure the value of their 21 years of investment does not drop further, and will have to improve the playing staff and manager. COYS
There is a pandemic! The club has no income from the stadium and its supporters right now, because of this… There is no open transfer window until the summer. And even then, the money will be tighter than tight. Because of Covid-19… And, the new stadium is not going anywhere. And neither is Levy…
The football that we are currently playing can only change through the hard work of the players, the manager and his coaches. And the bottom line is that we need to start playing better football and winning more matches.
And, Levy will not be our goalie tonight and Lewis will not be picking the starting eleven… 😉
We have a squad full of internationals. Many are very experienced internationals. Our captain is a WC winner. And, our manager is Jose Mourinho. He is paid a whopping £15m a year to be our manager!
We may be playing like a bang average team more often than not at the moment. But this is not because we have a squad full of bang average players… We are a PL team that has recently reached a CL final. Since that final we have employed one of the most successful managers of all time and bought in some top young players that were, and are are still highly rated in the game. We also have one of the most potent attacking duos in world football. Namely Son and Kane. Blah blah…….
I could go on……
We are playing a lot of losing football right now. Our PL form is very poor. And so, we simply need to start playing much better football… Winning football. As of now! We know we are capable of this. We know we can do this. This is down to Jose and Ledley etc., and our players… The stadium and our club finances etc., at this time, and all the rest, is neither here nor there in how we play our football, when that whistle blows… That is all just hot air! IMHO……….
HT…very true post there, it is as you say down to the players, management and coach’s to basically buck their ideas up and start playing football again!…win games!
For me the “only way is up” song in there somewhere lol! COYS
TQ2Spurs – for the record, I am certainly not against the idea of playing a more attack-minded 11.
I do think it could yet get worse though – think back to the Tim Sherwood days when we were getting blown out 5 or 6 nil to rival teams.
It becomes a difficult question to answer, but would you rather draw or narrowly lose, keep things respectable, and watch a defensive-minded team show little attacking intent, or play on the front foot, turn a few draws into win, but get humiliated by the better teams? There is no appealing option for me, but here we are.
BS…….I would be happy just to see the side we put out show a bit of passion and intent to win games, if we did so we might win more than we lose.
Tactics and intent/desire are 2 different things.
Unfortunately, if there is no desire, it doesn’t matter what formation is used, or what instructions are given – that’s an entirely different problem.
And one we probably have to a certain extent, I agree.
HT – As I said in the WHU thread, I think you are massively over evaluating our own squad.
A squad full of internationals, but even that has to be taken with a grain of salt. We’ve got a few Welsh internationals, but no disrespect to Wales, their last team selection included players from League 2. How difficult is it really to break into that national set up?
We’ve got a few very good players, and then a list of average ones making up the numbers. Yet fans talk this group up because they’re internationals (with the caveat I have just pointed out) or referencing our CL run, which really is the exception confirming the rule.
I think the sooner we are honest about where this group of players really is, quality wise, the sooner we will review expectations to more realistic levels.
I also find it slipery ground to discuss how much Mourinho is getting paid, without pointing out that Daniel Levy is, by far, the highest-earning chairman in the PL, with not many on the pitch achievements to justify that hefty salary.
If we can all agree that JM is overpaid based on his current performance, surely the same logic must apply for Levy.
The straight answer that I have for you right now BS, is that I disagree with all of that post… 😉
There is nothing to read into what I have written other than a lot of simple basic facts. Like I said when the whistle blows it’s all down to how we are playing our football. We can’t change anything else right now.
When I say JM is on that amount of cash… It’s simply because he is…… And if this isn’t an indication of what Levy’s ambitions were when he employed Jose, I don’t know what is…
Oh, and one of those Welsh internationals happens to be one of the worlds best players of his generation… Who just happens to be Welsh.
I also don’t think that any top PL players can be called bang average… They just aren’t! Not being the very best in the PL isn’t being average……. No player gets to play at this level otherwise…….. Among the thousands that try!
HT- It’s quite obvious that you have to be in the 0,1% to even make the PL. But, as far as PL footballers go, if the benchmark is other PL footballers (obviously the reference I was using), those players aren’t nearly as good as you make them out to be, for me. But I guess we’ll probably just have to agree to disagree.
It doesn’t matter what Gareth Bale was(one of the best players of his generation etc.) – what matters is the player he is now, for THFC, in 2021. And I don’t think all the accolades still qualify. It’s no good talking up the past reputation of players when they simply aren’t that player anymore.
I think it’s fair to say that there are very few teams in the PL that have top quality players in every position, the two that come close are able to do so because they have owners who put money in that isn’t generated by it’s football operations which most clubs have to do. Even they don’t have quality throughout their squads, take City as one of the two, they have Stones, Walker and Zinchenko for example who I would say aren’t much better than average but they still do a decent job because the manager knows when to play them and how to get the best out of them.
BS… Do you know that the population of Wales is approximately a 3rd of Londons population… And, there’s simply not a lot of Welsh PL players to choose from……
And, I’ll suggest that Gareth Bale (the Welshman) is definitely still above the average (as you see it) PL player…
I’ve always thought you need a good mix of quality, flair, and grafters to make a good squad. My ideal would be quality at goalie, 1 of the centre backs minimum, 1 defensive midfielder 1 attacking midfielder/playmaker, and 1 quality striker. That’s 5 quality players to which you add a bit of flair, say 3 players, probably out wide as full/wing backs or wingers, then add 3 grafters to do the hard yards winning the ball back and transitioning to attack. Simples! :- )
BelgianSpur – your comment regarding Bale can also be applied to Jose. He used to be a great manager, he clearly isn’t any more. for what it’s worth I believe we have a squad of extremely talented players who for whatever reason are under performing at the moment. Yes we have some weaknesses in the squad particuarly in the defence but I think this is more down to a lack of confidence than a lack of ability. Dier, Toby and Sanchez are all vastly experienced capable international footballers who are having a bad time at the moment. Winks and Sisokko also get picked by their national managers.
To sum up, the problem in my opinion is poor man management and poor coaching.
Donny….the a thumbs up from me, spot on. COYS
I’ll say this much…… Given that MP reached a CL final with a whole bunch of bang average Spurs players, by comparison to Jose right now, with his lot of bang average players; Poch was highly undervalued by our chairman and should be getting a lot more respect from some of our supporters than they now give him…
He must be a bloody genius of a coach!
My assessment of our squad in this context:
We no longer have a goalie of sufficient quality, we no longer have any quality centre backs, we do have (IMHO) a decent defensive midfielder, we no longer have a quality attacking midfielder/playmaker, but we do have a quality striker. Add to this a couple of flair players in Son and Bale (you could arguably add Dele) and potentially half decent grafters in Lo Celso and Reguilon.
So for me we need a minimum of 3 possibly 4 quality players i.e. goalie, centre back(s), and attacking mid/playmaker. We also need a couple of decent grafters to replace the likes of Sissoko and Lamela, and a new right/wing back who could be flair or grafter.
The chances of achieving this squad upgrade in the short term is probably unlikely due to the club finances over the course of the pandemic.
HT Before the pandemic it was obvius that the team needed a big investment which did not occur I think mainly down to Levy’s own meanness and the stadium debt . I feel that he was dupped into thinking that simply because we reached the Chap L final that everything was ok . Owing to the lack of real investment we are now reaping what we sowed namely poor football and negative results . On the whole we have purchased / borrowed not enough players who have been able to make the grade or are ready to play in the team . The obvious e.g. is the CB position where we have bought a young and inexperienced player to replace Verts ! I agree that the stadium is a millstone round our necks but Levy managed to find enough money to hire Mourinho
Allan. In the 2 TW’s pre C-19, Spurs brought in Lo Celso, Gedson Fernandes , Ryan Sessegnon, Bergwijn and our most expensive signing of all time, Tanguy Ndombele.
And, no matter what any of us may now think about any one of these players, they were all and are, highly rated young players that were most sought after by many top clubs.
And then right in the midst of the pandemic, amongst others well-rated players, we have Bale back at the club who is currently our highest paid player. And even when we consider that Real still pay most of his wages.
Levy/THFC have splashed the cash! Firstly in support of MP and then Jose.
MP was a strong man motivator. He had other faults and was tactically a bit naïve, but he clearly got the best out of many players.
Yet after 5 years of trying with MP, that recipe failed to deliver any sort of accolade. For all of his wonderful traits, MP could never get anything over the line. If our ambition is to be a nearly team, MP was a great manager. As harsh as that sounds, it’s probably true.
I can’t blame the club for wanting to try something new, on the face of it.
Whether the JM experiment will in fact deliver results remains to be seen. Even if it does, it’ll come with other side effects.
The only conclusion I can draw is that no situation is ideal.
As far as the quality of the group, I take TQ2Spurs’ point of view that you don’t necessarily have to have world class players in every position to win things. However, I think the City example is a poor one, because despite having 2 or 3 players who cannot be classified as “world class”, they have more than a few who can.
I will also reference Liverpool, who don’t have a “sugar daddy” throwing artificial money at the club, and they have a built up a squad full of quality, in every position, over a period of about 4 years. They have spent big when it was needed (VVD, Alisson, Salah…), grown their own (TAA) and bought wisely through superior recruitment (Gomez, Robertson). We just haven’t been as efficient using our own resources, and that’s down to DL.
DH – I could get behind your point of view that we have quality players who just aren’t coached well, if many of those players had taken a step backwards compared to the MP days.
But the reality is that several of the players you listed were already struggling under MP, and some of our players have gotten better under JM. If every single player had gone backwards under JM, that theory might have legs, but it’s just not reality. Some players have also probably just regressed due to age rather than coaching.
Some players have gone backwards, others have improved – that probably holds true for any squad going through a change in managers.
BS….I take your point regarding Liverpool, they have invested wisely in a few quality players in important positions but do you not think they are beginning to suffer a similar downturn to ourselves with players looking like they have burnt out?
Those who remember Cloughy will probably also remember that he usually built his title winning sides by breaking transfer records buying a top quality goalkeeper!
TQ2Spurs – I think downturns are inevitable, and that any team only has a small window of opportunity to win things.
Liverpool’s window may be closing, but no one can argue that they didn’t take advantage of it. Even if they don’t turn into a dynasty, a PL and a CL in 2 years is a return most clubs would dream of.
I’ll ask this one question to you all.
Given that nothing can be done about our non-existent stadium income and squad, right here, right now at this point of the season. And given some of the talent that we do all agree is top notch and not average. And given that Jose is our manager/head coach blah blah…
Do you not all think that we are more than capable of playing much better football and getting much better PL results than we have been since December?
If not, then I’m afraid that we are doomed…
HT….that’s the point I was trying to make earlier, we might not have the best squad in the PL but I believe they are currently under achieving, we can all speculate as to why this might be.
Hi TQ. I realised that. It was your post that made me write that, as much as my own thoughts…
HT….simple answer to that question….YES! COYS
Should we be doing somewhat better? Absolutely.
But are we shoe-in for top 4 given the resources at our disposal? Probably not.
So the question is: if we were playing better football, and were currently 5th/6th within touching distance of the top 4, but we were out of all other competitions, would you be happy?
If the answer is yes, I understand why you liked the MP days so much.
If the answer is no, I guess it depends on what your expectations are. If you are expecting us to be near the top of the PL, I would suggest those expectations are unrealistic.
I must disagree to an extent with you on this one HT.
Whilst I will agree that indeed we do need to be better than average to even get anywhere near the prem, compared with some other players we do have “some” pretty average players, this isn’t to say they’re bad.
As far as international players are concerned, coming from a country where I you were to bring your boots to an international game you have a chance to get a game (lol)
Doherty is in an international team with several lower division players.
But my argument is that if you look at our team, are there more than 1 or 2 other players around the division that are better, unfortunately the answer is now yes.
For example say 3 years ago,
How many goal keepers were as good or better tha Lloris (maybe 2)
Who would you have swapped out of our back 4 of
Verts, Tobs, Walker, Rose for me nobody
Like wise Erikson, HK, Sonny, Dele. Very few as good in the premiership.
I used to look at our team and say, no matter who we faced that Man for man we are better than you, I wouldnt want any of your players in my team because they aren’t good enough.
I don’t say that now.
We still have HK and Sonny still at the height of their powers, N Dombers, Hoj, Regs. I’m still hopefull of GB really coming good and I do think that’s coming.
As for the rest, perhaps age, too long at the club and need a change, or by premiership standards are really “bang” average.
If you look at other teams can you say our RB is as good or better than theirs, our goalie is better, or LCB is better.
To compete we need our players at 7/8 out of 10 performances each game and some don’t have it in them, whether that is to do with coaching, fitness, attitude, mentality, age, I don’t know.
Other than an odd game this year many players Havnt given this. Everton was an example of what we can do although we lost it was an excellent performance.
Im aware that we currently don’t have a window of opportunity to change, but I suppose we all see the problem and the answer differently. Some( including myself) think getting rid of JM is the answer but for me it would take more than that. We were bad before JM came and whether the money he was given was spent wrongly I suppose is up to the eye of the beholder.
For me Regs, Hoj good signings
Bergs, Doh, just OK
Bale, Rhodon, Vinny Jury’s out need to see more.
I’m aware that a lot of teams don’t have top quality in every position, but it’s not wrong to want that.
We were up there with Man C, but we have fallen away and let other teams catch us up.
In real terms we have regressed.
Needless to say guys, but I think a lot of you are seriously underrating the current wealth of talent we have at the club. So we agree to disagree. It’s all good. 😉
But, I think that this is Jose’s problem (and mistake) too. He will say he needs money. I say he needs to update his tactics. Posthaste!
HT….am not in that underrating players bracket, for me its down to coaching and systems that suit. COYS
HT – great post at 1.22PM. Whatever the merits of our current squad – I for one think it is a really good squad – the bottom line it is always down to the manager to get the results and our current manager whose coaching methods are apparently second to none is failing miserably.
The good thing is we are clearly in the midst of the end game with Jose. The blaming of others “there is only so much a coach can do” has started. The cryptic comments are now starting to emerge “other circumstances are contributing to our poor results”. The isolating of players is well under way – Bale and Dele have had their turn – Rodon is the latest victim. As results continue to deteriorate as they surely will then Levy will have no option but to give Jose his marching orders.
Donny….thumbs up there mate. COYS