Have Your Say: “It’s That Morning After Feeling” – Dissecting Spurs’ Bayern Nightmare & Looking To The Future

One thing I would point out though for MP, he also needs to understand that if these players are not performing they will get him the sack, the players will be alright, they will go on and get their move so maybe MP needs to be a bit more selfish and protect his job by being ruthless and potentially upsetting these players, its a hard call for MP because of the circumstances and relationship he has with the players. He is a Mr Nice guy and treats people in the right way, that is why they have developed a close relationship. It’s like when you love someone but are unhappy and want to leave. It’s hard to say so, you don’t want to upset them. Although I know often when people split it’s usually nasty but not always. Sometimes it’s not working and you want out and you struggle to say so because you care so much and don’t want to hurt your partner, sure you get my drift.

However, MP if he really wants to stay, he has to protect his job and that might mean being a bit more ruthless. I don’t actually think the players are consciously causing trouble, so for me, there is no blame game, it’s just with sport, a team game you do need everyone committed and on the same page otherwise its hard to have harmony.

Take Sanchez, how does he feel sitting on the bench when he knows Toby and Jan are not committed, why play them and not him? Some will argue you play your best team regardless, which I agree, but it’s still going to cause unrest between players. They are human and football is an emotional game, they see commitment and togetherness as vital so when players are not committed, then those who are not playing are seeing players who are leaving playing, it causes issues.

It also causes issues for the coaches, they want to develop a team that is not just immediate but long term and playing those who are leaving stops that to an extent. Sanchez’ development is slowed down because he can’t play as much yet those players ahead of him will be gone, to the player and manager it’s a season wasted.

The talk about these players running contracts down are still committed is not actually true. You show your commitment by signing a contract, they have had plenty of time to do that. It’s so easy to say I’m still committed that’s why I’m here but that isn’t the same as signing a contract and, to be honest, they say that so they play.

It’s human, if you’re leaving a job often your effort and focus dwindles towards the end, ever given your notice in and found you automatically slack off, not saying it’s deliberate but it happens unconsciously and it’s impossible to rectify it when it comes to sport where there is always a fine line.

Now I am not overly concerned because I know it will be sorted by summer, there is no quick fix. Clubs are unlikely to pay for these players in January unless they are desperate. What MP does is neither right or wrong when it comes to playing them or not. If he continues to play them and we win he will be seen as being right, if we lose he will be slaughtered. If he drops them and we win he will be seen has right, and if we lose he will be slaughtered. Fact is there is no easy answers.

The club are in this mess and it’s a matter of time for this mess to run its cause and learn from it. My only concern is if we don’t get top four. The impact on the club financially, the players and our status will be hit hard. We still have a chance to get top four, it’s so early and for me that should be our objective.

So next summer we have the clear out and rebuild like what MP wanted but still have CL. We may get some of it sorted in January, some players might leave but it’s likely to be the likes of Wanyama, may be Aurier if an offer came in, but I won’t hold my breath.

I do feel MP can sort this out and, given time, it is what it is. I think the fans need to step up and help him and the team regardless of how they play. We all hit bad times and don’t want people to put the boot in, it’s the same for the manager and players. Just love them for what they are, they have hit hard times it doesn’t make any sense to slate them or moan all the time, that will just fuel the situation and make it harder to rectify.

I urge everyone to sing their hearts out for ALL the games no matter what happens and see things change sooner rather than later. Time for fans to step up and change their mentality.

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“Strong In Our Mentality” – Pochettino Comes Out Fighting After Spurs Horror Show

31 Replies to “Have Your Say: “It’s That Morning After Feeling” – Dissecting Spurs’ Bayern Nightmare & Looking To The Future”

  • DW… We can see you have adjusted Loz’s post from previous thread, now easier to read.

    She does make good points as usual.

    • Some bloody good comments lately (as ever!) so thought a few deserved a wider audience and Loz’s seemed best placed for the debate section really for anyone not following the other thread.

  • Loz….a very good post of good points, but basically it indicates strongly what most of us are seeing/already knew “the power players hold” over the club, not signing new contracts, don’t leave if it doesn’t suit, simple really. COYS

  • ……the thing about football is; good teams come together and then they start to unravel. Liverpool in the 80’s created history and then in the 90’s and early noughties it was United, now look at United? Now its Man City’s turn. We, over the last 5 seasons have become the nearly men, for 5 seasons we’ve tried to get close to silver ware but fallen either in the semi’s or in the final. Even our pursuit of the PL fell away in the battle of the Bridge. Players want success and, after 5 seasons of trying, they have grown older some have got slower and some have gone stale……Just Look at the press and TV comments, has there ever been a better time to give us a kicking. We have never been a popular club to the media and there isnt a paper or a TV Channel or Social Media outlet that is not sticking the boot and the knife in at the moment. Discontent breeds discontent and it soon becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. As Brits we grow stronger the further our backs get to the wall…personally, I dont think some of our players have the stomach for the fight or dont even understand what the fight is about and if they have been reading the headlines and the gossip columns (Verts slept with Eriksen’s wife) I cant feel sorry for them because they are writing their own headlines this season (Colchester, Bayern, Newcastle) . Like it or not Poch is going to have to take the squad through another period of change starting with a complete overhaul of our back line. Whilst all gthe empahsis was put on the midfield and replacing Eriksen no one was really noticing how our back four had lost its mojo. Watching Verts and Toby getting skinned by younger faster players was both embarassing and sad, sad because their names used to be the first on the team sheet. We have reached a point where some fans dont trust our squad anymore. We just have to hope that somehow they can pull things around but…. like a fighter in the ring whose taken just too many blows I wait to see how many have taken one punch too many and have given up. The truth will come out and we will know how many players want to turn things around. Liverpool will be the decider…get mullered at Anfield and the obituary notes will be written for the squad RIP Poch’s dream and philosophy….win, and the best statement the boys could ever make will be right there! October just became the cross road for our club!

  • Following on from my post, not signing new contracts, the answer from many to that will be that Levy is a “tight arse” for not paying the going rates, I am no accountant, though I did run a successful business, but I have to ask can Spurs compete with say the likes of MC/LFC to name 2 on this basis? am expecting a inundation of replies, lol! COYS

  • Rather than dwell on what has been, which can’t be changed, I got to thinking about how we change things to improve our future prospects. In this respect is our scouting and recruitment process fit for purpose?

    Having watched a good number of games already this season, and one in particular last night, I have to question this process at our club. In the summer we purchased an 18 year old prospect and immediately loaned him back to the selling club where he struggles to get in their matchday squad. Last night I watched an 18 year old start for the Gooners in a european match and score two very good goals and now has 4 in two games for the senior side.

    I have given just this one comparison but there are other examples, how do other clubs find and recruit players of this age and promise when we don’t seem able to?

    We have all seen very good prospects being snapped up by our competitors, no disrespect but some of whom don’t have as much to offer as we do in terms of facilities and european football, I’m thinking of the likes of Maddison, Brooks, James as home grown, and Martinelli and Guendouzzi as examples from overseas, all of whom have made an immediate impact at PL level at an early age. I couldn’t find the fee paid for Martinelli but otherwise none of these players cost silly money.

    We are also seeing the emergence of a number of academy players making their mark in the PL, for example Abraham and Mount at Chelsea, Greenwood and McTominay at United, Foden at City, Rice at West Ham, Longstaff at the Toons and a number at the Gooners that I’d rather not mention. Where are ours? We haven’t really seen any exciting prospects in our own academy who might be considered on the verge of being good enough to move up to the senior side – with the possible exception of Parrott and maybe Tanganga. Almost without exception all the ones I’ve seen are no more than journeymen who might eventually make a decent living playing in the lower leagues, we don’t appear to have any ‘flair’ players that might turn into the Maddisons and Martinellis of the future, nor do we seem to be able to find them from elsewhere.

  • In reply to you question PY, one of the purposes of building the new stadium was to increase matchday and commercial income to give us a better chance of competing with those clubs that are already ahead of us in this respect.

    To be fair the stadium has only been open for a few months, part of which was out of season so bringing in no money. From what I can make out we have already started to improve wages on the basis of increasing income but it will take a little while before it has full effect.

  • Just caught Poch ‘s presser….He looks and sounds calm, quite impressed and he makes a valid point; you cant go from beating Southampton with 10 men to suddenely becoming uncommited players ….! Lets hope he changes the friggin’ philosophy then or we’ll run out of steam again after 30 minutes!

  • PY – A couple of points regarding your post at 10.48:

    1) We shouldn’t expect to compete with City financially. But with Liverpool, we are closing the gap rapidly. In 2014, our revenues were 70% of Liverpool’s. Last year, they were 83% and this year’s will be even closer. We are closing the gap rapidly and they are no longer in another category to us.

    The big difference is that they are spending a lot more money, proportionally, than we are. And that is down to how clubs are run, and Levy’s reluctance to spend. We could in fact come very close to their spending if we accepted running the club differently.

    2) Although those richer clubs will on average outperform us thanks to their greater means, may I remind you that we have been outspent by 2/3 of the PL in recent years (despite those clubs have less money than us), and that teams like Birmingham, Leicester, Wigan and others have all won trophies more recently than we have?

    Having less money makes it harder on average to win trophies, bur it doesn’t make it impossible!

    You don’t need to be an accountant to accept these cold, hard facts.

    Regarding the article itself, most of what had to be said about the Bayern game was said in the match thread. For everyone’s mental sanity, I think it’s best if we just turn the page and move on. We can’t dwell on that embarrassment forever.

    Oyveh – just to react to your post specifically – Ferguson once said that a squad had a shelf life of 5 years, after which it needed to be rebuilt, no matter how big/good the players. It’s looking to be quite true in this case.

    And I forget if it was Mourinho or Conte who said that, very rare exceptions like Ferguson or Wenger aside, a manager’s ideas were only good for about 3 years, after which the system and philosophy became stale and lost on players.

    I don’t know if I agree with that, or how true that is, but it’s something to ponder. Either way, whether it’s the manager or the players, it seems that change is inevitable in order to keep things fresh.

  • TQ2S…..thanks for your reply, it was as I expected, though I did know already.

    BS…..again thanks for your reply, it was as I expected from yourself.
    Mind the 5 year squad life, could quite easily be true, thus re-building.
    As for “managers ideas were only good for about 3 years” that I will take with a pinch of salt esp if it came out of Moaninio gob, when did he ever stay more than 3 years and not get a massive pay-off.

    Sorry lads n lassies for asking that finance question, because to be honest I was getting bored with it all, the blame game, its his/its their fault blah blah it is in every article know matter what! lol! COYS

  • BelgianSpur – There is a way to come up with two completely different answers on spending, depending on whether you talk about net spend or gross, not clear which you were talking about. So in terms of net spend according to one account City have spent 4.5 times what Liverpool have since Fenway took over. But if you get £120m for Coutinho you can rebuild your defence and still show a net spend of zero. I would argue what Klopp has done is spent his money very well rather than spent a lot of it (in Manchester terms anyway). What complicates the issue of course is players running down contracts, Liverpool got £120m for Coutinho we will get nothing for Eriksen. It seems to be a general problem, Ozil at Arsenal, Sanchez at United. But so far anyway one Klopp hasn’t had to deal with, luck or good management ? who knows.

  • TQ2S

    An excellent post and one I was wonderering how to address ref our Academy players.

    Having perhaps some of the best training facilities does not necessarily mean you will produce some of the best youngsters.

    How is it that our younger teams are being beaten regularly beaten eg Brighton by teams with supposedly poorer training facilities than ours

    Also Bayern U19 ? gave our side a footballing lesson .

    From this it appears that we have few youngsters who will fit soon into the First team and that doesn’t auger well for the future ?

    Parrot was touted heavily but made little impact at Colchester .

    I understood the philosophy of the Academy was to blood the new generation so that when the older squad members needed a rest a competent youngster would take his place ?

    It would appear that we are not yet able or even have the youngsters , unlike several Premier clubs , to bring in any Academy player who will make an impression .

    Is our recruiting policy or our training methods incorrect and are the people in charge doing the right things to produce youngsters to come into the first team ?

  • PY – say what you want about Mourinho but not only does the track record of winning speak for itself, it should aslo be noted that highly-rate managers such as Conte, Ancelotti or Pep have also changed clubs every 3-4 years. Coincidence or simply the norm?

  • jod – I was talking about gross spend. I take your point about Liverpool’s net spend remaining reasonable, which only reinforces my point that they are not in another financial category to us. They have just spent money more wisely, on average, and haven’t let silly, self-imposed wage limits hinder their development.

    I will also bring up the fact that when we have sold players for large fees (Bale, Walker), we have reinvested rather poorly, targeting a multitude of average players.

    Instead, when losing a good player, Liverpool have reinvested sizable amounts on a single quality player who could transform the team (and to illustrate this, your Coutinho – Van Dijk example speaks volumes).

    Finally, Liverpool too have had to deal with losing players on free transfers (either important players which could have been sold for a large fee, ie Emre Can to Juventus, squad players which they probably could have gotten something for, ie Sturridge, Moreno, or expensive buys who turned out to be poor and were let go for free resulting in a huge loss, ie Markovic). They haven’t been immune to the problem. They’ve just dealt with the situation better it seems.

  • BS…..ok! you win, coincidence or the norm, I have no idea! but please tell me this how much success would the 4 named managers/coach’s have had had they been at Spurs, no better than we already have, so point proven if you do not have deep pockets and spend loads of dosh you will win nout! thus buying success. Not for me I am afraid. COYS

  • Allan – a lot of good questions regarding developing players there. Here are my 2 cents:

    1) any results at youth level have to be taken with a grain of salt. Managers at youth level have an overriding objective, which is to develop players for the 1st team. That trumps winning, at that level. Which means that decisions made at youth level will go in the favour of developing specific players, rather than fielding the team which is most likely to win the game. Sometimes, giving minutes to a promising prospect is much more important to the club than actually winning a specific youth game. Or giving game time to a 1st team player returning from injury. In that respect, looking at results only tells part of the story.

    2) at a top PL club, the bar to make the 1st team is set quite high. No disrespect to Brighton, but breaking into their first team is probably easier than it is breaking into ours. We’ve got internationals at every position, and it’s going to take a pretty special prospect to make the grade. I reckon that a lot of our youth players would probably find an easier path to the first team at “smaller” clubs. So again, the fact that you see more youth players at smaller clubs could simply mean that it’s an easier 11 to crack.

    3) Finally, and I have been saying this for years on VS, trying to build the squad through the academy is a pipe dream. Between the players who never make the grade, the injuries and the poaching from other clubs, it’s unrealistic to expect more than 1 or 2 prospects to make it in a period of 5 years. In that sense, we have actually over performed hugely, with the likes of Kane, Winks, Rose, and to a lesser extent, Walker-Peters and Foyth all in line for first team minutes after starting their Spurs careers in our academy. We are doing better than most, and the fact that Parrott is the latest name shows that we’re doing something right. Despite this, we’ll never get away from the fact that external recruitment is needed.

    The list of players who were not good enough is long (Mason, Bentaleb, Townsend, Pritchard, Carroll, not to mention the Shayon Harrisons, Shaquille Coulthirsts, Marcus Edwards of this world) and it’s a game where the vast majority of graduates will never make it.

    Why does the club persevere, you may ask? Because with the names I just listed, the club made tens of millions in transfer fees!

    When it comes to the academy, we are doing better than most, but it’s important to have realistic expectation as to what it can really produce, and what we can realistically expect from it. A lot of fans don’t, which leads to frustration.

  • PY – those managers probably would not have been as successful at Spurs, because while those managers have all been generously backed at their respective clubs, they probably would not have been at Spurs.

    You may not like the idea of “buying success” as you call it, but there is sadly a very strong correlation between how much a club spends and how likely it is to win things. It’s the reality of modern football – like it or not.

    This being said, statistical outliers happen from time to time. We are just hoping to be that outlier, riding our luck to a trophy. It isn’t impossible, but it’s highly unlikely. We’d already have a better chance if we were targeting trophies that the richer boys are overlooking (ie the domestic cups), but MP doesn’t fancy those… 😉

    But let’s keep doing the same things over and over, and expect different results!

  • I don’t think it’s fair to say the richer boys aren’t targetting the domestic trophies BS, look up the history of the League and FA Cups and you’ll find the two Manchesters, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool have dominated both competitions as winners in recent years.

  • BS….agreed “it’s the reality of modern football” – “like it or not” I am of an age I will “or not” thank you, I have far to many lovely/great memories, visiting here and there, England/Europe, of Spurs in their yester years, I will leave this “buy success” to you younger/modern fans, as I have said prior, until money became the be all and end all of everything, nobody discussed/talked about CEO’s/Managing Directors all they chatted about was the Manager/Coach or the players. I am a “Yid” through and through and will always follow my team, Spurs! no matter what. COYS

    • Poch’s message that a team that can beat Southampton with 10 men does not become rubbish in three days rings hollow with me. We do have great players who can play sublime football at times. That’s not the point: there is something missing in the team DNA which shows a lack of belief, commitment and ambition. There may well be a purple patch to come but sure as eggs there will be other dire results too. A clearout is definitely overdue and that probably includes the management team.

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